Welcome back to the Oathbringer Reread! This week is either meta or surreal, depending on your perspective and/or your definition, as Dalinar has a lovely chat with … well, with someone who may or may not be a product of his imagination. Or maybe it’s a Shardic interaction. Or… who knows? Click on through and see what you think it is.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread—if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done. This week’s reread doesn’t contain spoilers for any other books; although there’s a very brief discussion of Realmatic Theory, it’s just what was in the text.
Lyndsey and Aubree were unavailable this week for various real-life-related reasons, so yours truly will be flying solo. Wheee!
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar
WHERE: Though Dalinar is physically in Urithiru, the action is in Vision-Kholinar
WHEN: 1174.2.5.4 (Three days after fleeing from Vedenar, the Thrill, and the curates)
Dalinar “wakes” in a place he just barely recognizes, and finds Nohadon writing a shopping list. The two of them converse about life and leadership issues until Dalinar is smashed out of his presumed vision by a bunch of thunderclasts; he discovers that he’s in bed in Urithiru, it was (probably?) a dream, and he remembers the night of Gavilar’s funeral in great detail.
Beginnings
Title: Hypocrite
“I’m a lie, Nohadon. A hypocrite.”
“Sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a man who is in the process of changing.”
As Dalinar notices, this is something he himself said in the past. He just didn’t realize how true it could be, and how hard it could be to deal with your own past once you’ve changed.
Heralds: Jezrien, Herald of Kings, patron of Windrunners, Protecting/Leading, King
This chapter couldn’t really have anyone else, could it? The whole thing is Dalinar interacting with a legendary king on the subject of leadership.
Icon: The Kholin Glyphpair indicates Dalinar’s POV.
Epigraph:
Many cultures speak of the so-called Death Rattles that sometimes overtake people as they die. Tradition ascribes them to the Almighty, but I find too many to be seemingly prophetic. This will be my most contentious assertion I am sure, but I think these are the effects of Moelach persisting in our current times. Proof is easy to provide: the effect is regionalized, and tends to move across Roshar. This is the roving of the Unmade.
–From Hessi’s Mythica, page 170
She’s got a valid point about regionalization, from what little we know of the Unmade. The Almighty could (or could have in the past, anyway) affect things planet-wide, but the Unmade have localized effects. Some are very concentrated, like Yelig-Nar who deals with a single individual, while others affect a wide area, like Moelach or Nergaoul. Some… we don’t know yet. Hopefully we’ll get more information from Hessi, for whatever reliability you place on her words.
Also, notice the underlying assumption (pointed out to me by Aubree)—the Death Rattles can’t be from the Almighty, because they’re too often prophetic, and of course we know that seeing the future is evil and from Odium, not our precious Almighty!
Stories & Songs
Yes, he remembered this place well. This was the vision where he’d met Nohadon, author of The Way of Kings.
We return to history and legend, and there’s no way to know where they overlap. This is a familiar place, as Dalinar has returned to this vision several times. Except that, of course, it’s not the same vision. I question the validity of this vision, honestly. Or rather, I really wonder about its provenance. It’s clearly not a new vision from Honor. Is it from Odium? Cultivation? Or is it just a nightmare—Dalinar’s brain trying to sort out all the craziness that’s going on in and around him?
(Side note: I have a quibble with the Coppermind entry on Nohadon; it reads as if Dalinar’s visions are true to life and this is really what Nohadon was like when he was older. We really don’t know if that’s true; it depends totally on the source of this vision/dream/whatever-it-is.)
Speaking of which… what is it?
Dalinar started toward the balcony, but storms, that light was so intense.
This reminds me of … well, somewhere along the line, when Odium invades one of Dalinar’s visions. The light is super intense until Odium moderates it for him, if I’m remembering it right. Does that imply this is from Odium?
“Yes, you shop, don’t you?”
“I … usually have people to do that for me.”
“Ah, but of course you do,” Nohadon said. “Very like you to miss a simple joy so you can get to something more ‘important.’”
This is really bugging me now. This sounds like someone who actually knows Dalinar. Honestly, I’m leaning more and more toward this being Cultivation, but I’m not sure I can articulate why—other than I’d rather have her than Odium messing with Dalinar’s mind. And that last crack about missing a simple joy for something more ‘important’—to me, that sounds more like Cultivation than Odium, but I can see the opposite argument.
Nohadon leaped off the side of the balcony. He laughed, falling and sliding along a cloth banner tied between a tower window and a tent below. Dalinar cursed, leaning forward, worried for the old man — until he spotted Nohadon glowing. He was a Surgebinder — but Dalinar had known that from the last vision, hadn’t he?
First off—so you still have to go up the hard way, but why not go down a slide instead of the stairs, if you can? Second, I now really wonder what Surges Nohadon could bind. The first time we saw him, in the vision of The Way of Kings, Chapter 60, he mentioned that “not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.” Does that mean he is bonded with an honorspren? Or is Karm, the man Dalinar stands in for in that vision? On a bet, I’d guess Nohadon is a Windrunner just prior to the establishment of the Orders, but that doesn’t really explain why he’d need the slide. (And of course there’s always the question of whether the spren at that time were already limited to the two Surges per race, and all that, but… that’s another area of speculation altogether.)
“I walked all the way to Urithiru on my own. I think I can manage this.”
“You didn’t walk all the way to Urithiru,” Dalinar said. “You walked to one of the Oathgates, then took that to Urithiru.”
“Misconception!” Nohadon said. “I walked the whole way, though I did require some help to reach Urithiru’s caverns. That is no more a cheat than taking a ferry across a river.”
This made me laugh—Dalinar telling Nohadon what he really did. Like you’d know better than he would, dude? Heh. (Of course, neither Dalinar nor I believe he’s talking to the real Nohadon, but still!) I also like the way this ties into the beginning of Part Two, when they discovered that there was a tunnel system below Urithiru that, followed far enough, took them out into the foothills of Tu Fallia. According to the book, Nohadon claimed to have walked “from Abamabar to Urithiru”—but we know that his seat was a much-earlier Kholinar. Could Abamabar be the likewise much-earlier name of Kholinar? I mean… why not? If I can go on the assumption that he started from his home—which, if Abamabar = Kholinar, had its own Oathgate, no walking required—he would have had ample space to do all the things he recounted, but it would still have been a reasonable distance. And I don’t see why Nohadon would talk about the journey through all these lands if he hadn’t done it. Look at where Tu Fallia is on the map:
If you’re walking from Kholinar to Urithiru, you go through Alethkar, Vedenar, Triax, and Tu Fallia—and, come to think of it, possibly right up Cultivation’s valley. Huh. Obviously Dalinar has been there; I wonder why he hasn’t put this together. Unless he’s just accepting the standard explanation without really thinking about it, which… well, people are known to do that. From time to time. I guess.
Ooookay. Back to the matter at hand.
He reminds me of Taravangian, Dalinar suddenly thought. How odd.
We just recently got a new WoB telling us that Taravangian also dealt with Cultivation rather than the Nightwatcher to receive his boon and curse (though he doesn’t seem to realize that, per his thoughts in Chapter 121). If this vision is from Cultivation, could that resonance be what Dalinar senses as a similarity between Nohadon and Taravangian, like Lift noticed in Dalinar? And in that case, are all the odd visions (the ones that don’t come from Honor/ SF or obviously from Odium) from Cultivation? I sure do enjoy speculating some days…
Then there’s this fascinating—and central—discussion about principles, with Dalinar thinking that making the right decisions should always have good results. Nohadon disagrees, at least in the immediate sense.
“Isn’t a principle about what you give up, not what you gain?”
“So it’s all negative?” […]
“Hardly. But maybe you shouldn’t be looking for life to be easier because you choose to do something that is right!”
It’s a very human thing to think: if I make the right choices, life should go well for me. And yet, if you want to talk about right and wrong in an absolute sense, rather than “right = what is good for me personally,” Nohadon is absolutely correct: sometimes, doing the right thing bears a tremendous cost in the short term. Sometimes, the benefit is a long, long way off; sometimes, the benefit is for someone else. That doesn’t mean it’s not worth doing.
A wise person once said, “We all choose what we want most.” The immediate response is, “No, we don’t, or I’d stay in bed instead of going to work.” If you think about it, though, you get out of bed and go to work because in the long run, you want the paycheck (and you want to keep the job so you get the rest of the paychecks) more than you want to stay in bed today. Often, we do things in the way that is socially acceptable not because of the thing itself, but because of the social acceptance that comes with it. Or, if you’re in one of my Facebook groups, you refrain from talking about RL politics even when you think it’s a relevant topic, because you’d rather stay in the group than start that discussion.
Dalinar knows this, at some level, but it’s fun to see him work through it consciously.
He saw it above the buildings, a stone creature with an angular face and red spots glowing deep in its rocky skull. Storms! And he had no weapon.
Nohadon stepped from the tent, holding his bag of grain. He looked up and smiled.
(Gotta say, that creeped me out! I thought for sure this was an Odium-vision at this point!)
The creature leaned down, then offered a large, skeletal hand. Nohadon touched it with his own, and the creature stilled.
“This is quite the nightmare you’ve created,” Nohadon said. “What does that thunderclast represent, I wonder?”
This is just getting surreal. The person in his dream/vision, likely created by a Shard, is now asking Dalinar about the nasty creatures with which he’s populated said dream/vision. ACK. But Dalinar’s response to the question just hurts:
“Pain. Tears. Burdens. I’m a lie, Nohadon. A hypocrite.”
And without copying it all, Dalinar finds himself surrounded by monsters who crush buildings.
The rest of the interaction belongs in the next section.
Weighty Words
“All things exist in three realms, Dalinar,” Nohadon said. “The Physical: what you are now. The Cognitive: what you see yourself as being. The Spiritual: the perfect you, the person beyond pain, and error, and uncertainty.”
Welp. There you have Realmatic Theory in a nutshell. Good luck understanding all the implications, though!
“You’ve said the oaths,” Nohadon called. “But do you understand the journey? Do you understand what it requires? You’ve forgotten one essential part, one thing that without which there can be no journey.”
“What is the most important step a man can take?”
“Journey before destination.” This is so big, so profound. Nohadon, or Dalinar, or a Shard (probably), knows that while he’s said the words, Dalinar hasn’t really grasped the concept of the journey. Or at least he hasn’t grasped how intentional his own personal journey needs to be, completely aside from leading the nations. As before, he’ll soon assume (chapter 105, I think?) that the most important step is the first step. It’s not until nearly the end of the book that he realizes the truth: the most important step is always the next step. You can’t just start; you have to keep going.
Bruised & Broken
It had been … what, three days since his return from Jah Keved? His excommunication from the Vorin church?
He remembered those days as a haze of frustration, sorrow, agony. And drink. A great deal of drink. He’d been using the stupor to drive away the pain. A terrible bandage for his wounds, blood seeping out on all sides. But so far, it had kept him alive.
I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know much about the professional definition of alcoholism, but it occurs to me that Dalinar may not ever really have been an alcoholic. He was, if anything, a Thrill addict; he couldn’t stay away from that particular adrenaline rush. But alcohol… it was never anything more than a way to numb his mind, either from lack of the Thrill, or from his own painful memories. He wasn’t, as near as I can tell, irresistibly drawn to drinking most of his life; he turned to it as the only available means of drowning out his brain. As I said, I’m no expert, and I’m not saying that many alcoholics don’t do exactly that. It just seems that, except for a few years, Dalinar has always been able to have wine with a meal, or at a social event, without any inclination to drink too much. It’s only when he’s bored and missing the Thrill (e.g. Chapter 49) or after the destruction of Rathalas and Evi’s death (Chapter 88) that he turns into a complete drunken sot. Most people I’ve talked with who have actual experience indicate that “a single drink” virtually doesn’t exist for them; one inevitably leads to many, or at least to the nearly-overwhelming urge for more. They have to stay away altogether.
So… he’s broken, that’s for sure. Who wouldn’t be, with such knowledge suddenly bursting in? But I’m not sure he’s an alcoholic; I think he’s just a tormented man who uses liquor (or firemoss) to drown out the things he can’t cope with any other way. Once there’s another way to deal with it, whether it’s Cultivation pruning his memories or—as in the current sequence—returning them, he simply sets aside the alcohol and gets on with what needs to be done. I could be wrong, but that doesn’t sound like any description of alcoholism I’ve ever heard.
Dalinar awoke, huddled in his bed in Urithiru, asleep in his clothing again. A mostly empty bottle of wine rested on the table. There was no storm. It hadn’t been a vision.
Speaking of alcohol… He certainly thinks the whole thing was an alcohol-fueled nightmare. I think it was a vision from Cultivation, who doesn’t need a highstorm, like the Stormfather does, to touch his mind.
He buried his face in his hands, trembling. Something bloomed inside of him: a recollection. Not really a new memory—not one he’d completely forgotten. But it suddenly became as crisp as if he’d experienced it yesterday.
The night of Gavilar’s funeral.
The night that started him on The Way of Kings. But we’ll deal with that in his next chapter, in two weeks.
Places & Peoples
“I’ll be cooking Shin loaf bread today, if I can get the ingredients. It always breaks people’s brains. Grain was not meant to be so fluffy.”
You have to do a little connecting of dots, but in just a few chapters, Szeth will comment on a grass that reminds him of wheat. I’m thinking that Nohadon is going to buy wheat to make bread that’s more like what we’re used to—and that most of Roshar eats some form of flatbread rather than anything resembling a loaf. Yet another reminder that Shinovar is very Earth-like, while the rest of Roshar is very not.
The men wore long skirts, tied at the waists by wide girdles, some of which came all the way up over their stomachs. Above that they had bare chests, or wore simple overshirts. The outfits resembled the takama Dalinar had worn when younger, though of a far, far older style. The tubular gowns on the women were even stranger, made of layered small rings of cloth with tassels on the bottom. They seemed to ripple as they moved.
Seems like this ought to be verifiable somehow; was this really a style from … whenever this was? Roughly five thousand years ago, or maybe six thousand? Come to think of it, that might be hard to verify! But there’s no way this is Dalinar’s imagination or memory creating these images. I just don’t buy that.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
“Stormfather?” Dalinar called, his voice echoing. “Stormfather, why have you sent me a vision? We agreed they were too dangerous.”
It’s worth noting that, though Dalinar doesn’t point it out, the Stormfather never answers. In a later chapter, he’ll deny any knowledge of this event. I’m assuming (as noted above) this means that Honor had nothing to do with this one.
Quality Quotations
It swung open easily beneath his touch, and he stepped out of the loud sunlight to find himself in a circular room.
“Loud sunlight.” What a lovely, unexpected phrase.
Welp. The more I work through this chapter, the more I’m convinced that it’s one of the Shards. There’s just too much knowledge represented that Dalinar couldn’t possibly have. And for a lot of different reasons, not all of which make much sense, I believe it was from Cultivation. What do you think it was? Nightmare? Odium vision? Cultivation vision? Something else entirely? Discuss!
Also, join us next week for Chapter 104, in which Navani tries to keep the show on the road.
Alice is excited and apprehensive: volleyball playoffs begin tonight!
The light doesn’t remind me of Odium, it reminds me of the dream he had of his childhood at the end of WoR. Which the Stormfather also denied sending. I think whatever those dreams were, they’re from the same source.
I’m not sure what to make of this vision. It reminds me of the vision Dalinar has at the end of WoR. The vision that convinced Dalinar that there was something in the Beyond.
I have to disagree with you, Alice, on one thing. I do think this was really Nohadon. At least, this is really the way he was. Just like how the people in Dalinar’s Stormfather visions are real memories.
If Nohadon walked through the area with Cultivation’s grove/valley in it, he may well have visited Cultivation herself, just like Taravangian and Dalinar. If the vision is from Cultivation, then perhaps the Nohadon of the vision is essentially a dream replica provided by Cultivation based on her direct interactions with him and thus essentially accurate. This in turn makes me wonder if Dalinar will at some point have a Cultivation vision involving Taravangian, perhaps some time after the latter is revealed to be aligned with Odium. This could allow Dalinar to have a crucial measure of insight into what will essentially be his opposite number on Team Voidbringer.
exactly this light reminded me of Odium, since Dalinar thought of it as familiar and Odium was with Dalinar for most of his life. Also Odium likes to depict himself as golden light.
its widely speculated, that Nohadon was a bondsmith. The Stormfather is very fond of Nohadon, maybe he was his spren back in the days.
@@.-@ (and Alice I guess): thing is, those dreams don’t feel like Odium. Happy childhood playtime, therapy time with Dr. Nohadon that ultimately leads him to leveling up in Bondsmith… attribute them to Cultivation, Nohadon’s ghost, Dalinar’s subconscious, the God Beyond, whatever, but I can’t believe it would come from Odium.
This conversation that Nohadon has with Dalinar is more about trying to help him understand himself (and possibly give him hints what he needs to do at the end) This is not Odium, as Odium’s MO is more about trying to get people to give up, to give in to their emotions, while this conversation seems to be more hinting at Dalinar to accept his past and to move forward, with the one key line “what is the most important step a man can take” I also don’t think it is Cultivatoin, because her MO seems to be more about someone growing by themselves, she just does a little pruning. This light is something else, the same light he saw in his vision at the end of Words of Radiance. Now who or what is sending this light, no clue.
@5
You are just assuming, that both of this visions come from the same source, wich im not convinced of. The first one could be Odium, “released” in the Everstorm finally able to influence Dalinar more easily to become his champion, letting himself look good in the eyes of Dalinar. The timing is just too fishy for me.
The one with Nohadon confused me big time, when i first read it, but i agree, that its not from Odium (or just a drunken dream), but i also highly doubt, that its from Cultivation.
I was very pleased by the notion of Nohadon writing a shopping list when Dalinar assumed he was writing his legendary book, and the notion of him shopping and baking as a hobby. Kings and visionaries gotta eat, and (like everyone) have a right to a little wholesome fun.
“There is satisfaction in creating a list of things you can actually accomplish, then removing them one at a time.” True that. Though I find that the sight of a to-do list can be stress-worsening, on balance, when little or nothing on it has been crossed off because I’m slower to get things completed than I had hoped.
So, in my own reread I saw, “What is the most important step a man can take?”
And I thought, “Hi, Gavilar.”
Pseudo-Nohadon is Gavilar’s Cognitive Shadow.
Someone who knows Dalinar well: check.
Was a Bondsmith-in-potentio himself and saw the Honor visions: check.
Asking Gavilar’s question to Dalinar: check.
We have a WoB that the afterlife of Roshar is broken, and we know that spirits of the dead haunt people (namely Szeth and Dalinar).
So I assert that “Nohadon” is Gavilar’s Shadow, probably assisted by Cultivation.
@9 Huh, I never actually thought of that, and the strange warm light did first show up as a vision, putting him as a child, probably a time when he truly trusted his brother. Maybe his spirit regrets everything that the Sons of Honor did, or he did want to bring back the radiants, not as kings as Amaran wanted, but to help save the world. It make more sense than it being Odium playing his tricks, as Odium’s light is portrayed not as warm, but as harsh as the sun. a terrible burning sensation.
As a recap: Nohadon’s claim to have walked to Urithiru has been puzzling in-world academics for a long time, since all other ancient sources says that Urithiru was inaccessible by mundane means. It was commonly accepted that he was being metaphorical- by Urithiru, he meant that he walked to somewhere very far away, and towards Honor.
But, of course, since we now know where Urithiru is, and that reaching is on foot is technically possible but difficult enough that very few people would attempt it, interpreting Nohadon’s statement literally suddenly makes a lot more sense. but Dalinar hadn’t quite had the chance re-evaluate his words until this chapter
But anyway- I kind of assumed that this was the real Nohadon, contacting Dalinar through Spiritual Realm shenanigans. He doesn’t really talk like Cultivation, and really doesn’t talk like Odium. This is the point where it becomes undeniable that something weird is going on with Dalinar, in any case. Something other than his bond with Stormfather, or getting his memories back from Cultivation.
In my opinion, this is a dream and Dalinar’s subconscious is Nohadon. I firmly believe it is not a vision because close to the end, Nohadon says Dalinar’s name. If a person’s spirit can communicate after death in some way (like ghosts and some pictures in the Harry Potter universe), then I could be convinced that this is the spirit of Nohadon actually present in Dalinar’s dream. As a real long shot, it is possible that this is a dream sent by Cultivation, where she assumes the role of Nahadon. She uses the form of Nahadon because she has seen how much influence that War of Kings have had on Dalinar on how it appears that he respects the person that Dalinar thinks Nahadon was. However, I think this is unlikely as to me, such a move would be Cultivation taking too much an active role. It appears to me that she appearing in a dream would be more than structuring the boons that Dalinar (and presumably King T) received to potentially benefit her in the Final Desolation.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Huh, I never thought about Cultivation. However, it fits very well, given how much this dream helps to steer Dalinar’s growth and development. And, of course, the new WoB confirming that Taravangian was changed by Cultivation combined with the fact that “Nohadon” in this vision feels like T to Dalinar provides a very significant hint in that direction.
Personally, I always thought that “Nohadon” from this vision is Tanavast’s cognitive shadow. It always bothered me that cognitive shadows are usually fully autonomous imprints of complete personalities, rather than series of pre-recorded, partially interactive visions. I think that there is a WoB that a Shard is just too complex for leaving such an imprint, but a Vessel is not.
What is more, judging by what we witnessed in The Secret History – I don’t want to include too many spoilers – even if Honor was going mad in the end, Tanavast’s cognitive shadow wouldn’t necessarily be. And Tanavast was described by Hoid as a fun-loving fellow who you’d enjoy going out for drinks with – which “Nohadon” certainly is in this vision. Now, Honor wouldn’t go so far as to replace Stormfather’s mind with his Vessel’s cognitive shadow – that would go against it’s Intent, but it could be hidden in SF’s subconscious and as Dalinar’s bond with SF strengthens, he’d be able to interact with it more and more, without SF being neccessarily aware of it.
But yea, Cultivation probably makes more sense. Odium is very unlikely, given the guidance that Dalinar received in this vision. And the fact that him writing “Oathbringer” is also “directed growth”, both for him and eventually for his readers. I very much hope that “The God Beyond” remains completely mysterious and unconfirmed – anything else would feel very heavy-handed, religion-wise.
@13 – Worry not. Brandon has already said he will never answer the God Beyond question.
Alice: I’m having trouble parsing this line:
Is there a missing or misspelled word, or am I just having a bad reading comprehension day?
@8 Aerona – That’s why my wife often adds a couple of freebees on the list to get things started: “Get up”, “Get Dressed”, etc. :)
@15 – I think the phrase is meaning: Without copying the scene word for word here in this recap, what happens next is more thunderclasts appear and crush everything essentially ending the vision.
A potential problem with this vision coming from Cultivation is the danger of Odium hijacking it. If Cultivation is meant to be hiding from Odium then exposing herself like this may be too much of a risk. While I don’t discount it based on this, I do lean towards it being somthing other.
I think if it was Odium behind all these “light” references there would also be the word “golden” in the description. If I think of any default color going along with light it would be white not golden and when Odium is referenced it seems to include golden as a descriptor. Of course, I haven’t gone through and searched to verify this, it’s just my memory of what I have read.
So I’ve been persuaded for a while that Nohadon’s cognitive shadow has been working behind the scenes for a long time. The vision is a big clue, since I don’t think it can be just Dalinar’s subconscious, since Nohadon says things that don’t really make sense for Dalinar to know, such as the part about Shin bread, and whether he went to Shinovar or not.
I hadn’t considered the possibility of Cultivation, which I guess is possible, but when we see her later she doesn’t have the sort of carefree attitude that Nohadon portrays in this vision. She’s quite austere and demanding, and while seemingly on Dalinar’s side, she seems to see him more as a piece on a chess board, than the vision Nohadon does.
I also don’t see how it can be Tanavast’s Cognitive shadow since that is the Stormfather and he says that he didn’t send the vision and knows nothing about it.
There are also a number of points in Oathbringer where Dalinar hears a voice in his head that speaks to him at opportune times, and specifically says “Unite them” during the climax. There are similar moments for other characters I believe. I remember one with Shallan, where she assumes it is Wit’s voice in her head, but it could easily be Nohadon’s instead. I’m not explaining it very well, and it could certainly end up being wrong, but for me it’s the most convincing way to look at all the evidence.
Here’s a reddit thread that discusses the theory: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/bs8rxx/nohadon_as_a_cognitive_shadow_evidence/
As a bondsmith, Dalinar’s powers connect things…it could be that these dreams are his subconscious connecting present and past to get crucial information. We often have dreams that are instructive, once we tease out the symbols. So the thunderclasts were Dal, and represent his feelings of fraud, but the rest, that’s him connecting to the echoes of the past. Maybe? I love the theorycrafting that happens in these recaps. :D
@19 You’re right, golden has been a key word when it comes to describing Odium’s clothes, or his light when he reaveled his true presence to Dalinar. I also always saw it as Odium’s light is terrible, like the burning of a sun when you stare right into it. This golden light, on the other hand, is always described as warm, like sunlight through a window, or a fireplace’s heat as you stare into it. I also don’t think it’s cultivation, as she seems to believe in sink and swim, to let her plants grow and make their own decisions, like a gamble, she doesn’t really give advice that Nohadon seems to hear. The only problem of this being Nohadon’s cognitive shadow is: its been a long time since his death. Wouldn’t he have faded into the place beyond, even with the spirtirual realm in shambles? I don’t see it entirely destroyed when Nohadon was alive, just because Honor wouldn’t have been splintered yet.
“We just recently got a new WoB telling us that Taravangian also dealt with Cultivation rather than the Nightwatcher to receive his boon and curse (though he doesn’t seem to realize that, per his thoughts in Chapter 121).”
Interesting. Do we have confirmation on whether or not Lift got her metabolizing-food-into-stormlight powers from Cultivation or Nightwatcher?
Also, put me down for Team Actually Nohadon. If Roshar’s afterlife is broken, there’s no reason this couldn’t be Nohadon.
After mulling it over a bit, I think they are definite signs of Cultivation’s hand in this chapter. In addition to Dalinar connecting Nohadon to Taravangian, we have the way he gets abruptly and weirdly back on the head with a flashback at the end of the chapter. That has got to be her work; pulling Gavilar’s memory to the forefront so it’ll be on his mind when Odium tries to break him. Which would imply that she’s involved in the dream happened. I do not, however, think the dream is as simple as Cultivation wearing Nohadon’s face to talk to Dalinar. I remain in the ‘real Nohadon’ camp, but maybe Cultivation allowed him meet Dalinar like this.
@23: There’s nothing quite that direct for Lift. There’s this one, where he says she met ‘the Old Magic’, which to me sounds more like the Nightwatcher than Cultivation, but there’s definitely room for interpretation.
I personally think this is a vision sent by the God Beyond.
@23, 24 – This one is hot off the press:
@26: Ooh, interesting. It almost looks as if he was about to say “specifically, by accident”.
@27 Maybe, which would be interesting. But he also was maybe just about to say “by act of cultivation” and then decided to add “an” in front of it.
@27, 28 – I listened to the audio of his answer and I think the person who transcribed the audio was just being very detailed in their transcription lol. It was just a normal verbal goof. There was no pause in his change in direction.
@26: I’m not inclined to read too much into that, personally. Like, all the Old Magic stuff is ultimately Cultivation-based and specific to the individual. It strikes me as Brandon being squirrelly and deliberately mudding the water on this issue.
Reading these I’m always aware of how much I never even thought of while reading the book. I do like the Cultivation theories though.
necessary_eagle @1 (and others) – That’s the other one I wasn’t remembering when I wrote the bit about the light reminding me of the Odium encounter. The one at the end of WoR was definitely another plot point. I suspect the different but overlapping descriptions involving light are deliberate and meant to make us wonder!
Austin @2 – It may well be that this is much the way Nohadon really was; I’m just not sure that we can count on it in the way the Coppermind implies. And of course, we may never know that. My current theory, such as it is, would be that it’s a dream-person based on Cultivation’s memory of Nohadon, but doing and saying the things she specifically wants. I’m pretty sure it’s not actually Nohadon, anyway.
… which is pretty much what Porphyrogenitus says @3. Okay, then. :D
Carl @9 – Could you find and quote the WoB about Roshar’s afterlife being broken? I can’t find it. I found one where someone asked if there was something wrong with it, but he said he wouldn’t answer questions about Roshar’s afterlife.
bad_platypus @15 – whitespine @17 is correct in interpreting that line. Sorry… it made sense when I typed it… in my own mind…
All in all, I’m fascinated by the various theories and perspectives on this … event. I’m glad I’m not the only one who doesn’t think we can quite pin it down, but it sure is fun to read the rationale for all the views. I sure hope we find out eventually! The arguments for it being Nohadon’s cognitive shadow are interesting, though I don’t find it a compelling case. Then again, I couldn’t find the “Roshar’s afterlife is broken” WoB, or anything implying that; it would be nice to have the exact wording of both Q and A.
@Alice:
Sorry, I think I was just misremembering the WoB. I still think it’s the case, though. Otherwise, why would Evi have hung around and not gone Beyond, and why would both Szeth and Dalinar be hearing the screams and cries of their victims?
@33
I dont think its really all the souls chilling their and screaming the whole day. I guess its the echo of their dieing screams from the spiritual realm. If the souls would hang out there, why would they have stopped screaming after Szeth got healed. If the exact same actions would have been commited on Scadrial or Nalthis, we dont know, if they would hear the screaming too, right?
The descriptions I see of cultivation do not match my understand. Cultivation isn’t just hands off sink or swim. It is pruning, trimming, grafting, fertilizing (usually with dung) and then allowing a period of growth. The idea includes careful planning but also periods of intense dirty smelly work. I presume all of the work associated with the harvest is also implied. Even the periods of growth are accompanied perhaps by watering weeding and perhaps more fertilizing.
On yet another reread, and I love all your awesome insight, analysis and discussion
But I can’t disagree more on Nohadon haha
10000000% not odium or sinister, even before getting to RoW and seeing Dalinar access the spiritual for Kal to talk to his brother.
It’s way too monumental and impactful to his arc, the light is from the Beyond, the warm light not hellish sun of Odium.
Everyone is 90000% sure he’s a Bondsmith and is either granting connection through Urithiru/Sibling or the stormfather.
We always guess Tanavast’s CS is saying unite them, but there’s some curious WoBs about nohadon.
This chapter is going the opposite of what odium would want to turn him into his champion..it’s progressing him in his oaths as a Bondsmith and helping him to recover.
Its AMAZING in the graphic audio, does a really good job making it epic and intense with the music.